Muddy Waters

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Posts by Muddy Waters

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  88

  If the big change at the AGM meeting is dropping the literal 144,000...

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the best conjecture seems to be that the gb are going to drop the literal 144,000 teaching, especially in view of the december watchtower that pointedly does not mention the 144,000 number.

  if they are dropping the literal 144,000 number, but still claim that only a small number are anointed, and can partake, and that only a few are left on earth, then it is fair to ask what has really changed?

  they are simply clearing up the embarrassing situation that there were obviously more than 144,000 "anointed" believers from 36 ad until now, and that the number of partakers has been increasing in recent years.

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  Muddy Waters

  Wow, such cool thoughts. Love this. Thank you. Marking.
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  32

  How Many Enjoy Celebrating Holidays? Birthdays?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i admit that i do enjoy it, especially with my grandkids.

  birthdays, too.. i believe we missed out on a lot of fun and normal activities because we were witnesses..

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  Muddy Waters

  We haven't done anything yet, though a friend bought us a gift for our DOG and sang Happy Birthday to him while I stood there like an idiot.... (Our friend loves our dog, lol, and our dogs play great together....)

  I don't know if we can yet get past the guilt and "materialistic aspect" of certain holidays or not! They sure do look like a lot of fun, though...

  I've been thinking about Halloween lately, and how that seems like it might be fun!
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  22

  Interesting quote from July 15, 2013 Watchtower

  by Rufus T. Firefly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the article who really is the faithful and discreet slave in the july 15, 2013, watchtower contains a curious comment.

  in paragraph 10 it is stated: "in recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.".

  can anyone tell me who in recent decades has closely identified that slave with the gb?

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  Muddy Waters

  *marking*

  Love everybody's comments. Oooh, very tempting to go the Sept. meetings!!
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  42

  share your reaction after reading CoC and ISoCF

  by suavojr in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after reading coc and isocf i cried, i was in shock, disillusioned, angry, and afraid... anyone wants to share their experience?.

  i would like to see what you think about these questions when compared with your account.. why people from different backgrounds feel similar reactions?

  (cannot be a conpiracy).

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  Muddy Waters

  I too, read CoC with tears pouring down my face. It was shocking. Made me feel sick, nauseous inside. Heartbroken. Angry.

  I also had observations such as, "where is the anger? Where is the hate and vitriol that I would expect from reading an apostate book? Where are the attacks, insults, sly cunning and deceit?" So at first I read very carefully, sure that somewhere in his words were the smooth whisperings of a satanic viper subtly attempting to attack my faith. Yet his words were not that way. Ray Franz presented FACTS. He presented evidence, letters, correspondence, WT articles... and all in a spirit of deep humbleness, despite his personal pain.

  At first I didn't want to believe. I made excuses. I thought maybe the GB had become apostate, but that Jehovah would correct things in time because this was still gods organization. But of course, it gradually filtered in that God, as presented in the bible, never had a Christian organization the way the WTS presents it. It took a while for that point to get hammered home to me, as I was a totally indoctrinated dub!

  There was also much cognitive dissonance, trying to absorb the things he was saying. It felt like an optical illusion, where you see a thing from the WT/JW perspective, and then a sudden shift to see it as he was describing it. Very strange at first and disconcerting! There was a lot of confusion and disillusion. But people on these lovely supportive ex-JW forums helped immensely and told me to just take my time, keep reading and researching, which I did almost non-stop!!

  Ayway, the long and the short of it is that I can now never believe in any religious system! I AM FREE!!!!
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  50

  Well I gotta go......

  by punkofnice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ...i might drop in every now and then but i hope you all enjoy life, escape the watchtower(r) and live prosperous lives.. i can't say i contribute much here anyway (and i'm not attention seeking).. i'm just going to get on with life away from the constant reminder of the mistakes i made being a jw zombie drone.. i guess i'm just going to fade.......rather quickly.. of course i didn't need to make any posts here to disappear but i thought it'd be polite and very british to bid you all a fond farewell.. see you all sometime.....maybe.....maybe not.....maybe....... bye!.

  ps.

  don't pm me as i won't be checking the pms.. .

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  Muddy Waters

  You know, when I first began posting here, I remember how shocked I was at your avatar, LOL. Some of your words were so terrifying to me, so "apostate"!!
  Yet your words were also filled with thoughtfulness, sincerity, intelligence, satire, keen observations, clear thinking, occasional anger & angst, and all your words and insights were very very helpful to me!!
  
  It helped break down the WT walls, to see people like you who were once ELDERS in the congregations, revealing the dark cavernous underbelly of the WTS and its hidden teeth (now not so hidden!) and its duplicity and inner workings, lies, scandals and hypocrisy. They are no better than any other man-led belief system (and in may ways, much worse!) and your posts and your pain and your journey away from it all has been cathartic and healing. I salute you, brother, and wish I could shake your hand as you carry onward and leave the WT shit behind.
  
  Imagine that, too... a sincere smile & handshake. :)
  
  And heck, why not.. even a hug.

  - Luvs, Muds
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  33

  Fading ... Do You Owe Witness Friends An Explanation?

  by What Now? in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm curious about what you all think on this subject.

  when my husband and i became irregular about a year ago, and then inactive around 5 months ago, i felt that it would be hypocritical to take advantage of the social side of the witness community if we weren`t going to meetings or in service.

  we stopped entertaining (which we did quite regularly - theme parties, card parties, movie nights, big turkey dinners, breakfasts on holidays etc), and i slowly stopped accepting invitations for get togethers, playdates etc.

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  Muddy Waters

  Yes, if they weren't under CULT MIND CONTROL I could see maybe giving an explanantion. But even at that, people get busy, drift away. They do other things, then drift together again, and away they go again. Like ebbs and flows of the sea. People flow around you and occasionally touch you... Some stay and you lap their gentle vibes of friendship and return waves and ripples of friendship and goodwill to them.
  
  And others are a surging storm you can't wait to run away from and some people are like pools which draw you in... there are calm waters and deep waters and shallow waters... and there are glazed-over frosted icicles that threaten to break if you should breathe on them....

  Haha. Howz that for "illustration". ! :)
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  165

  Board of bitterness

  by 1009 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

  but still this religion fascinates me.

  in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

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  Muddy Waters

  1009, you speak with muddy marbles in your mouth. You don't seem to "get it".

  Have you read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz? He was a member of the GB for 8-9 years. When you read that book, the lies, deceit, and duplicity of the WTS is laid bare. Highly recommended.
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  40

  Branch Organization Manual! download .....

  by notgoinback in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as my second post on this forum, i want to share this with you guys!

  this is the official branch organization manual (updated 2003) of jehovah's witnesses:.

  http://jhonlemos.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/branch-organization-watchtower.pdf.

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  Muddy Waters

  Point 46 blows my mind: "... It is not necessary for Bible translators to know Hebrew and Greek...."

  How can BIBLE TRANSLATORS not know (Koine) Greek or Hebrew, since these were the very languages used to write the Bible?? If you wanted to, oh, say, "TRANSLATE" the Bible from these languages, would it not be necessary to, let's see, have KNOWLEDGE about these languages??

  Is that not what the word TRANSLATE means??? To translate from one language to another?? How can you do this if you only know and speak ONE language?? What the heck are they even talking about when using the word translate? Perhaps they got it mixed up with the word TRANSPLANT. As in transplanting a THOUGHT or IDEA into the text (thus making it personal interpretation or commentary) and calling that a TRANSLATION??
  
  Head is spinning.
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  39

  Help!! Don't know where to start

  by ILoveTTATT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok so to start... i am still an active jw... but only because i cannot get out yet... i am slowly planning to get out.... i should really read hassan's cult control book... it seems like i am getting everything wrong in trying to help the people i know to know ttatt.. so i will need your help, all of you dear people.. my current, actual beliefs are pretty much agnostic... no belief in any particular dogma, but i believe there is a higher power out there.... there are so many things on my mind... for example,.

  1. the fact that no nt manuscript contains the name "jehovah".

  2. the blood doctrine.

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  Muddy Waters

  You asked about ideas for questions...

  Questions that might get them thinking:

  Example: Get out your Bible Story book. Look at the horrid picture of Pharoah's army and all his horses being drowned. Look at the "godly" people, the Israelites. Why are they smiling??? Why are they smiling and even laughing at this scene of destruction when the Bible clearly says "Jehovah himself takes no delight in the death of the wicked one?"

  Who wrote this book of Bible Stories? Oh yes, men who don't even have children….(oops, sorry, not quite true. Only ONE man on the GB has a child!)
  
  Other example: Is underlining a sentence in a magazine really something that God approves of? Is it really a sin or bad thing if we fail to do this? Did the early Christians have to do all this pre-studying and meeting attendance?
  
  What was the main theme of the New Testament (sorry, "Greek Scriptures"). Did Jesus tell us about doctrines and so forth as the main focus of his teaching? What did Jesus really tell people to DO? (Answer: Love God and Love your Neighbor! That was it!! He then demonstrated ways for us to do this!)
  
  You could ask what Jesus meant when he said to feed people, to give them food if they are hungry, clothes if they are unclothed, etc. (Witnesses will say this only applies in a *spiritual* sense!! Maybe go further on thoughts like that… like why did the early Christian congregations take up donations to help each other? Why did the disciples suppose Judas had gone out to give some money to the poor? Why did Paul say he was EAGER to help the poor, after he met with the older men in Jerusalem, and that was the MAIN thing those older men were concerned about -- see Galations! Paul said that the older men in Jerusalem were more concerned that he should be making some gift to the poor, a thing he was already EAGER to do!)
  
  What is this all about, counting hours in field service? Did Paul count his hours? When the Bible says to be generous, ready to share, not even keep accounts of the rights and wrongs, why do we keep our field service time accurate to the now-15 minute?
  
  There are so many little questions you could try to ask, carefully, and when it seems appropriate… direct attention to the BIBLE because it so often and frequently TOTALLY CONTRADICTS what the WTS says.

  And please do read some off Steve Haasen's stuff! Very helpful. :)
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  How Religious Indoctrination Enables Clergy Abuse - clergy are viewed as conduits to some sort of god or gods

  by Sol Reform in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  but #3 is where things really get interesting.

  in many religious traditions, clergy are viewed as conduits to some sort of god or gods.

  eternal damnation is at stake.

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  Muddy Waters

  ... very interesting. marking. Thank you.